Personality 'Issues' in the local church

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Thanks and best wishes to you.

Once more, wilson_brooks2003, thank you for reading and for responding so fully. I am not, definitely not in any way, dismissive of some of your suggestions and I understand your reasoning. As I explained I really was willing to attend a meeting with our Minister, the former friend and myself but it was not to be. I can't be sure although I do understand more about this type of personality disorder and it is possible that such a meeting would have been futile - and perhaps my Minister knows this. The Associate Minister definitely knows what Gaslighting is because I heard the term from him directly when I had never heard of it before.

Gaslighters, it seems, will never face reality and will lie in a totally convincing manner - even in the face of positive evidence. They cannot allow themselves to lose face as losing face would mean losing their security - albeit false security. For them that would be out of the question. They are, sadly, as I understand it, often very damaged peopl who cover it well.

The 'Counsel', was to support my decision to end the friendship then, when there were difficulties implementing it, the guidance was clearly to write, briefly making it as clear as it was before. I am truly sad to think that this person could do the same again but, for now, the 'issue' is no longer 'active.'

Although I hear exactly what you say, my strong sense from God is for me to stay in the church where he brought me, blessed me and nurtured me for over 20 years now. It is so difficult to explain - but this 'gaslighting' was going on slowly and escalating over years and I really did not know that it was happening. It is strange but true.

My Minister has the most amazing qualities and I would not throw the baby out with the bath water. I would need to hear clearly from God if I had to move from the place of love and fellowship to a different church.

This may be an odd expression but I see, at very close range, one fly in the ointment - a person who may or may not be a Christian functioning in the fellowship with a 'normal' outward persona who is potentially capable of being quite destructive.

I am not her judge but, now having learned, I see her as a very sad person who would be horrified to think that I, or anyone, could actually see her hidden insecurities and her, almost certain, personality disorder. God is bringing me through this without bitterness.

Again, I am not dismissive of your careful observations and comments as the 'wholle thing' is still a bit of a shock to me. Many blessings to you, wilson_brooks2003.

On a positive note you’ve learned a great deal from this situation and should something similar occur in future you’ll be in a position to ‘nip it in the bud’ and to be more assertive with the one trying to exercise control over you.

The situation as you describe it in your local church is serious. There’s gossip. Your former friend may well be muck spreading and undermining someone else. It’s a toxic situation.

You speak highly of your Minister (in using that term ‘minister’ I’m guessing you’re based in Scotland as that’s the term used there in place of Vicar or Pastor or such like) and yet ‘he doesn’t excel at dealing with conflict resolution.’ The younger associate minister seems to be more on the ball and suggested a meeting. That seems to me a sensible and positive move to try to resolve matters.

But your Minister – in what way can he be termed YOUR Minister when he didn’t actually minister to you and respond to the suggestion made by his younger colleague? – it seems did nothing.

Contrast his inaction with Paul who, when he heard of unchristian conduct in the churches he set up, took decisive action to the extent of instructing the local church leaders ‘to remove’ such persons.

From what you’ve described it seems that he took the easy way out.

It’s my observation that the majority of clergy today are ‘liberal theologians’ (if they can rightly be termed theologians) who tolerant everything and anyone ...except for those who question their position on central doctrinal issues. Those ones treat the Bible in Humpty Dumpty fashion in that ‘a word means whatsoever I want it to mean’ and treat the Scriptures like a Restaurant Menu picking and choosing what they like and discarding passages they personally don’t like.

And the paradox is that although they tolerate all sorts of conduct in their church they cannot bear questions that go to the heart of their doctrinal beliefs. On one occasion I asked the clergyman at a local church about organising a house-to-house ministry in the manner of Christ’s disciples to spread the ‘good news’ and he looked at me as if I’d asked him to join me in a bank robbery.

You’ll understand that I’m saying your minister really ought to have grasped the nettle and arranged a meeting between you and the one undermining your confidence.

IF your church is C of S and which is most likely ‘liberal’ it may be that you could give consideration to finding a non-mainstream congregation to fellowship with Christians who genuinely believe the Bible is God’s revelation to man and that it is inerrant and infallible (I’m talking about the original ‘autographs’) and His words convey specific meanings which can be discerned by a straightforward reading of Scripture – and who try to live to His standards.

I have just ordered the book: When To Walk Away’: Finding Freedom From Toxic People’ by Gary Thomas. Thank you for suggesting it wilson_brooks 2003

Thank you again for replying, wilson_brooks 2003. I'll definitely look out for the book: ‘When To Walk Away’: Finding Freedom From Toxic People’ by Gary Thomas. Publisher: Zondervan. ISBN 978—0-310-34676-0"

We were 'good' friends for about 10 years although it was only in the tenth year that I became aware of how manipulated and controlled I had become. I have average intelligence but, with the benefit of hindsight, I succumbed to the skilful tactics of a narcissistic gas-lighter. The significance of the gas-lighting is that is happens very slowly, subtly, gradually manipulating the 'victim' until they are controlled, sometimes totally controlled, by the gas-lighter and, thankfully not for me, in extreme situations the victim feels as if they have lost or are losing their sanity.

The gas-lighter undermines the 'victim' so much that the person, slowly and gradually over time, loses confidence and trusts the gas-lighter more than they trust their own (God given, I would say in the 'case' of a Christian) common-sense. The 'victim' loses insight and can become so trusting of the gas-lighter that they doubt themself beyond any common sense. The long-standing friendship was entirely platonic - definitely nothing untoward in that respect although the book makes it clear that this 'situation' is recognized in some marriages/relationships. The abused partner/person/friend becomes so 'destroyed' and lacking in confidence that they often stay (friends in my situation) with the abusive gas-lighter) and, sadly continue to suffer. I am going right out on a limb saying this but, because of the nature of the alleged gossip (I did not rise to the bait) I did wonder, afterwards, if my former friend was possibly even a latent lesbian and the alleged gossip, if that is the case, could have been her way of scaring me. If so, it did not work.

I bought the book as: 'In used in good condition' on Amazon: Gaslighting & Narcissistic Abuse Recovery by Don Barlow. (It is entirely secular and is extremely informative. It gave me considerable insight.) I then understood what was happening to me and words can barely describe how upset I was. As I explained, my 'friend' ticked all the boxes and it was really scary.

I am slowly recovering and it hurts to see this person in church with all the potential to, in time, seek out and groom another victim. It is so sad because the gas-lighter, the book says, is insecure and is usually a very damaged person who can cover it up 'perfectly.' Yes, I am still hurting and I am recovering. Healing takes time. The answers I seek are not to enable me to find peace - rather to find out if others have found this or similar situation in the church, how it was addressed and to learn from the experience of other Christians. My feeling is that such people, gas-lighters, have the capacity to cause significant damage to their victims - even within the Christian community in the church. IF not addressed could it be like saying: "Peace, peace where there is no peace?"

We (that is the former friend and myself) have a wonderful Christian Minister. When I made an appointment to see him (once it was possible keeping to Covid guidelines) he listened.

Our Minister has amazing God given gifts and qualities although, I have to say, he does not excel, as I learned on this occasion, at dealing with conflict resolution. I told him why my decision was to end the friendship. It had to be done and I wished nothing less than God's best for this, now former, friend. Our younger Associate Minister (who spoke with me when our Minister was away) suggested that we should have a meeting - Minister/'friend' and me. - to talk things over. Our young Associate Minister recognized the situation very quickly and he actually used the term ‘gaslighting’ before I knew what it was called. I agreed to this possible meeting. However, our Minister did not respond to this at all although he knows why I had to take such firm action. To be realistic – with this particular type of personality disorder it is doubtful if the ‘friend’ would have agreed to meet and it is possible that our Minister recognized this.

After our friendship ended the then the former 'friend' continued to pester me. This was when it had become possible to return to church in person. I knew that it had to stop. She was tormenting me, pretending to be really concerned about me, still never acknowledging any of the serious 'issues' I had raised and had tried, very unsuccessfully, to discuss with her and she would say, in very caring tone that she was praying for me.

These unwanted approaches, after I had, on several occasions by this time, made it absolutely clear that our friendship was over, had to stop. I telephoned our Minister to explain my distress and his guidance to me, which I followed, was to write to her briefly and, once more, make it absolutely clear that our friendship was over and followed this by stating clearly that I did not wish her to approach me in church again. So far, this has worked because she has stopped approaching me. It took very firm measures to get her to stop pestering/tormenting me.

I explained to our Minister how distressed and almost ill I had become and that, with regret, I had blocked her from my email, my landline telephone number and from my mobile telephone number.

I am very open to any of your observations and thank you for being interested enough to read and to respond to my posts. I assure you that I am (definitely far from perfect) an honest Christian - saved by God's Grace and truly grateful for the gift of Salvation. As before, I wish nothing less than God's best for this former friend. I am concerned about the possibility of her, in future, grooming another victim over time - as she did to me in now recognizable gas-lighting tactics. It is so sad.

Thanks for explaining the situation in greater detail which gives more clarity to your plight.

The way you describe your former friend and her behaviour certainly shows that she’s a ‘control freak’ and a bully –and for a fact bullies are at heart insecure and quite fearful (very possibly due to circumstances in their early years) – but I’m not sure if narcissism applies to her but then I’m no expert.

You don’t say how long you and she had been friends and I’m guessing – perhaps incorrectly – that you and she wouldn’t be in the category of ‘life- long’ friends and perhaps your relationship developed only more recently.

I’m reading between the lines and guessing that your gentle nature was interpreted by her as ‘soft touch’ and which to her mind made you an ideal target for her malicious words and behaviour which had you even doubting yourself. I make mention of this point because if her behaviour is consistent in the manner described you would have recognized for what she is and confronted her a long time ago.

(There’s much wisdom contained in Proverbs on dealing with such people).

On the occasion when she told you about gossip relating to you it may have been more to your benefit had you required her to provide the details and to have done so in front of others. That’s what I would have done but then again I’m not shy of those who present adversarial situations – and I recognize that many others don’t feel the same.

You mention that you “intended to seek the wise counsel of your minister” but you don’t say whether or not you followed through. If you did so, what was his view? If you didn’t follow through, why not?

You say that you have ‘forgiven her’ but given that you have posted your experience is evidence that you are still hurting and seeking answers to find peace.

May I suggest that you get hold of a copy of ‘When To Walk Away’: Finding Freedom From Toxic People’ by Gary Thomas. Publisher: Zondervan. ISBN 978—0-310-34676-0

You may be able to get a second-hand copy cheaply on Amazon or Ebay.

Best Wishes

Thank you for replying, wilson_brooks2003. The reason I consulted a secular book is because I could find no other source where the situation I was in was being described or explained in detail - detail which I could relate to in terms of the specific manipulation I had been subjected to by this person. I wanted to understand the situation I was in and her destructive behaviour. This reply is rather long and I hope you are able to persevere in reading it.

It now seems clear that my former friend is very insecure and is desperately trying to gain control in a rather slow, subtle, manipulative and destructive way. It seems to come under the umbrella of 'Personality Disorder.' She covers it well. You mentioned that you are someone with strongly held views on matters of importance and can be confrontational. I bent over backwards to 'confront' her with gentleness and kindness and suffered more lies and humiliation at her hand.

This person groomed me skilfully and very slowly over years and I really did not see what was happening until I was so manipulated and dragged down by her that I started to feel depressed. It came to a head when, once more, the person humiliated me in company then totally denied it - placing all responsibility on me and undermining me to the extent that I almost doubted myself. I was shocked to the core when she told me about 'gossip' (allegedly relating to me in particular) at church. I said that I did not want to know who the 'gossipers' were and I intended to seek the wise counsel of our minister.

She then completely back-pedalled, lied and denied that she had ever said such a thing to me. Once more she suggested, almost convincingly, that I had misunderstood – she said that she did not tell me about any such gossip = it never happened so I must have made it up or imagined it.. The lies were slowly escalating and, every time, when 'caught' she totally denied it and suggested that I had made it up. She presents as kind, caring, genuinely Christian, yet there is this awful really dangerous undercurrent which can not be seen by others.

There could be something sinister at work IF she is faking 'her' faith or, is it possible that 'she' genuinely does not know or does not believe how shocking her true behaviour is - failing to acknowledge the truth of it and possibly being in denial? Her lovely outward persona is completely belied by the way in which she gradually gained control over me, gaining my trust, and finally manipulated me so badly that I felt utterly humiliated and struggled again and again to be sure that I really had not misunderstood - eventually doubting myself in, what seemed like, practically everything.

According to the secular book she needs this 'control' to make herself feel better. She feels better, the book says, by having complete control over another person - almost as if there is something 'missing' in her life and she is trying to fill the gap in this faulty way. This behaviour is described as narcissistic and gas-lighting.

The only way I could recover, because I was becoming depressed and her lies were so brazen, was to sever all contact with her as in: '... abstain from every appearance of evil.' According to the secular book 'she' really does tick all the boxes as a narcissistic gas-lighter and she parades in disguise as a kind, caring Christian. She treated me so badly that I even wondered if she was capable of destroying my God given personality. I became very afraid and was deeply embarrassed to be almost (not quite) fully under her thumb.

Do you understand why this is so complicated? She lies so expertly and skilfully and is so deceitful that it saddens me to think that she may ‘bide her time’ before choosing the next 'friend' innocent enough and trusting enough to be deceived and not recognize that they are being groomed by a potentially destructive narcissistic gas-lighter.

This may sound harsh and I ask you to believe that none of this is an exaggeration.

This has caused much heart searching and sadness. Forgiveness is a command which I fully embrace and I have forgiven her. Healing takes longer and, with deep wounds. the healing process can take time.

This former friend still parades in church with her lovely contradictory outward personal and, for me, I am willing to lose face if she speaks untruthfully or badly about me. I am not her judge - I just long to understand more about her 'condition' in the Christian context and in the context of church life - protecting her and others to honour God.

Thank you.

You have shone some light onto the issue between you and your former friend which you say has now sadly ended the friendship.

I'm unclear though as to why you felt the need to consult a secular book about behaviours because the Bible - which is a 'warts and all' account of the many failings of we fallen humans including even the rivalry between certain of Jesus disciples - is the go-to (medicine) Book for all occasions and ailments.

I will say with a very high degree of certainty that this situation is most definitely not unique to you. Similar issues will occur in probably every Christian congregation throughout the world.

Speaking personally, I've experienced similar behaviour from others and I readily admit that as someone with strongly held views on matters of importance I too can be 'confrontational.'

It would be of further help if you could give an example of a specific topic in which you believe you were being undermined. Another pair of eyes may just be helpful in assessing the situation. In the meantime may I suggest that should you happen to meet your former friend that you offer a smile? If your kindly gesture is rejected then so be it but it's always worth keeping in mind to 'forgive up to seventy-seven times.'

It may be that in time you can bring a happy resolution to this situation which is clearly making you unhappy by following Biblical guidance to take another friend along with you to try to restore things.

Thank you wilson_brooks2003. It would take a long time to explain but here is the gist of it. After a long 'normal' Christian Friendship I was becoming depressed in it and eventually realized that the person was 'Gaslighting' me. A slow very gradual process of manipulation and control. From reading the secular book this person seems to tick all the boxes.

Sadly it seems to be like Narcissism and is like a personality disorder where the person, to plug a 'gap' of ? insecurity in their own life slowly 'work' to manipulate someone to fill that gap.

Because it took place in the context of church I wondered if the person, a professing Christian, is aware and does this deliberately or if, for some reason, is unaware of the seeming personality disorder. I, as kindly as possible, 'confronted' this person about the controlling issues and other related matters. The person flatly denied everything and suggested that I was lying. Needless to say, and very sadly, the friendship has ended.

Does that explanation help at all?

Hi,

Could you give a couple of examples of what you term 'gaslighting' directed at you as trying to address your concerns which you have generalised would only be to engage in speculation?